Copy/Pasted Directly from my post on the Forums
-Sharp inhale, runs hands over his face and lets loose a heavy sigh- Okay.. where to begin...
So, I've poured over the feedback/requests forum looking for every ounce of Scout feedback I could find and compiling a list. Suffice to say it's apparently a bigger issue than I originally figured when I decided to tackle it but I'm not going to bore this community with semantics and rhetoric. Let's just jump right into the list.
Ordered from most commonly suggested to least commonly suggested:
- CPU/PG Increase
- More Equipment Slots
- Increased Speed
- Stamina Fix (previously nerfed)
- Ability to Sprint and Charge Knives
- Increased Scan Range
- Smaller Hit Box
- Biotics re-work (reduced CPU/PG requirements)
- Reduced Fall Damage
Now that that's out of the way, I'm going to say that there are a few things I agree with and a few things that I don't because in my opinion there's a lot going on with the development side of things and some of this changes just don't coincide with that very well. So allow me to explain (I won't even try to be brief).
Sensor Profile and You
Considering there are changes coming that remove shared visibility of targets on the mini-map, I'm convinced that this will eliminate most of the issue behind the Profile/Precision. For the longest time I had practically demanded to every CPM representative that I spoke with that you should only appear on Tacnet if their precision can beat your profile, even when aiming down the sights. This is a very bad thing as a sniper just has to look in your general direction and you're lit up for his entire team/squad.
Low Profile is practically useless to a Scout so long as Tacnet exists and that's an unfortunate side effect of things. However, with the future changes practically forcing the use of the Active Scanner and/or legitimate voice communication to relay location(s) of OPFORs this is pretty much fixed, assuming it's actually working as intended to which I won't hold my breath.
Skill Requirements
I can't fathom the design decision to make Scouts focused entirely on the use of Biotics when Biotics have such ridiculous skill requirements for very little results. Requiring Biotic Upgrades 5 just to access the standard Kinetic Catalyzer is ludicrous and considering that the skill itself only provides a 1% bonus to Sprint Speed, Stamina Capacity and Stamina Recharge it's not exactly the most useful skill in the game.
In order for a Scout to be effective with the issues that it faces you have to get pretty much every skill in Dropsuit Upgrades to level 5 - that's not including a weapon. Survivability (armor/shield upgrades) Speed (biotic upgrades and the skills it bridges into) Electronics (bridging into profile dampening/precision enhancement) and Fitting (engineering/electronics/core upgrades) are all NECESSARY in order to even be a remotely decent Scout.
These are skills that are supplementary to every other class but are the staple of the Scout's very existence, making it insanely difficult to be a worthwhile scout and requiring MILLIONS of SP to be effective and we haven't even touched weaponry yet.
PG/CPU and Slot Layouts
I can understand having low PG/CPU on the Scout from a design perspective but there must have been some miscommunication when Biotics wound up having such high resource costs. These are modules that I would look at in passing as an Assault as they don't increase my damage dealing capabilities or my survivability and being as I don't rely on speed as my main form of defense they're not exactly on my highest list of things to attain.
Skill requirements aside, it's amazing to me that Scouts need these costly modules in tandem with some form of Shield or Armor supplement. Armor Repairers are practically necessary if you want to recover from the stupid things like Fall Damage (we'll get to that in a moment) and Reactive Plates are far more costly than a single Repairer. Either way, it's eating a Low Slot which you're going to be needing for your Speed/Stamina modules but both of those have issues associated with them as well (which we will also get to in a moment).
Beyond that, having only one Equipment slot restricts Scouts into fielding one necessary thing over another. A scout -could- use a Drop Uplink (assuming he could fit the damned thing in the first place) or he -could- use an Active Scanner. Both of which are a nice contribution to the Scout's alleged role of Reconnaissance but all in all it's inevitably going to be a choice. Assuming, of course, he can fit one or the other.
Fall Damage and The Stupid Death
Jack be nimble, jack be quick - Jack jumped off the rail and fell to his death.
There is nothing more infuriating (yet hilarious) than imagining (I don't role scout so I don't have this happen often) what it's like to take a wallop of damage from an enemy that you just couldn't quite kill, only to die at the hands of gravity when you decided a tactical retreat was the best option.
Considering that Scouts have such low EHP values, fall damage is something of a finicky thing. What I could survive the brunt of just with my shields as an Assault, a Scout will usually find himself in a hairy situation - especially under fire. Suffice to say, if you try to escape at elevation after having taken a few rounds, you're more than likely not going to live through it. This is made worse if you don't provide yourself an Armor Repairer (see above) to recover from the damage as more than one fall will make short work of you in a hurry.
As for the Stupid Death - I've actually seen a Scout (probably new player) get one-shotted and 'suicided' by overheating a Laser Rifle. W. T. F.
Stamina and Stamina Related Issues
I don't even know where the hell to begin with this. There are a lot of stupid little nit-picky things I have to say considering how Stamina is the life or death of a good Scout. Considering that Cardiac Regulators increase both Stamina and Stamina recovery, it took me a good long while to wrap my head around the fact that my Cardiac Stimulant (beta BPO) was practically worthless and was only good for having slightly more PG cost than CPU. Dunno. We won't touch that one.
However, I've done some experimenting with this non-sense and I have to say that the limitations on Stamina and Stamina Recovery are just obtuse. I understand we want to put a limitation on the Bunny Hopping phenomenon that many FPS players use but considering that jumping isn't exactly the most wise thing a player can do in Dust 514.... Yanno what, let me explain that bit real fast... There is no point to jumping because you don't jump high enough (that means you too, scouts) to prevent gunfire from landing shots on your kneecaps.
So, with that out of the way, Bunny Hopping isn't this giant threat that it is in say.. Halo, which practically hallmarks on the tactic because you can jump higher than the person's reticle (this is also because the reticle is lower on the screen, rather than the center). But beyond that - and I'm going to underline this so it actually gets read - No matter how much stamina you have, jumping still eats 30% of your stamina bar. I've actually stacked Cardiac Regulators and packed a gigantic 300+ stamina capacity onto a Scout suit and it doesn't do any justice when it comes to jumping.
This is a major issue as there are a lot of shortcuts Scouts need to be able to use in order for them to dip in and out of combat that other suits can't utilize. There's actually on area near objective Alpha on the Biomass Outpost where you can't jump over the wall WITH A FULL STAMINA BAR. I know, I've tried and I died a horrible horrible death to an LAV gunner while I waited like a fool for my stamina to recover just enough to make the jump.
Combine that with the interesting issue in that Stamina Recovery actually has a delay (I dunno who asked for this but I'm going to scalp you) and you'll be waiting there for quite some time as your Stamina decides whether or not it wants to save your life. This applies to Sprinting as well, so no amount of speed, 8m/s or 10m/s is going to save you when you're waiting for that bar to fill.
The Invariable Issue of the Hitbox/Collision Box
I have a very lengthy thread regarding this phenomenon here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1079159#post1079159
For a good long while there was the misconception that the Scout's hitbox increased in size as he tried to Sprint. Through very lengthy and extensive testing my team and a few volunteers discovered this was not the case.
BUT. BUT.......
The Collision Box DOES increase in size for whatever reason. This means that you're more likely to get caught on objects as you try to sprint past them and will sometimes prevent you outright from going through a tight gap with which you originally would have been able to walk through.
As far as the Hitbox however, my team did confirm that the Hitbox does in fact lag further behind the player as they increase in speed. The faster you go, the farther back your hitbox is. This is why when I train my Assault guys in the corporation I encourage them to aim -behind- the scout rather than in front (leading) or directly at him. This has proven to be FAR more effective as it's solely due to a gameplay mechanic rather than any kind of balance or design.
Unfortunately, while the collision box increase is something that CCP can handle, I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about the Hit Box Lag in tandem with speed without actually screwing around with the hit box location. I had once suggested actually moving the hit box INFRONT of the scout but I recalled this idea when I started thinking of how wonky it would be when the Scout started turning corners.
Either way, this is definitely something that negatively impacts the Scout.
And finally.... Lack of a Definitive Role
As much as it pains me to say this there is simply nothing a Scout can do that someone else can't do better. I've heard many suggestions as to what they can do better but there really isn't much in the line of a definitive role that isn't outright usurped by another playstyle.
Minmatar Logistics will always hack faster... Caldari Assault will always make a better CQC fighter... A Minmatar Scout, even at level 5, still can't do as much Melee damage as a Heavy (relying solely on knives)... And worse yet, any ******* with a BPO LAV will inevitably get from Point A to Point B faster than the fastest Scout. This may seem unlikely but I've actually raced a Proto Minmatar Scout with Kinetic Catalyzers, my RDV dropped off my LAV and I arrived at the Objective with time to spare to initiate the hack.
Crossed with low fitting capabilities there is unfortunately NOTHING a Scout can do that someone else can't do better, with the exception of Minmatar Scout + Nova Knives dishing out as much damage as a Railgun but considering how hard it is to master their use I don't consider it a definitive role and just as well it doesn't apply to ALL Scouts.
Worse yet, according to my math, a Scout with all level 5 skills would still have to throw on TWO COMPLEX PROFILE DAMPENERS to get beneath a Prototype Active Scanner, resulting in a situation where the Scout has to spend more SP, ISK and fitting capabilities (-2 low slots) just to overcome a single equipment slot that infringes on one of his main defenses, and if he's fitting Profile Dampeners, he's probably not using Biotics to increase his Stamina/Speed and will make an easy target in the event that I find him without the scanner anyway
Oh dear God, Aeon, how the hell did it get this bad...? What can we do?
I have dabbled with a few ideas on how to permanently fix the Scout suit and have bounced ideas off of the CPM with the hopes they'd pass it on to CCP. Unfortunately, many of the CPM are either unresponsive or disagreed with what I had to offer. As such, I've decided that perhaps the community would prefer to hear those ideas and could help define them into plausible, working implementations.
- Cloaking.
This is something I was very wary of when it first mentioned and still am. In my opinion, this is not something that belongs in the hands of every player. I feel that Cloaking is more suited for the Scout, coincides with it's pre-designed role and would greatly benefit in it's re-balance. Beyond that, I feel that limiting Cloaking as a Scout-only theme would give it a specialization that no other suit could offer, much like Sentinels are permitted the use of Heavy Weapons and Logistics are given more equipment slots.
However, this isn't something to be taken lightly. Cloaking makes or breaks a game and we have to be compassionate toward the other roles and think about how OP it would be for a Scout to be able to charge his knives and have perfect concealment. Instead, I feel that Cloaking should be disrupted on two levels. Level One, in which actions such as sprinting or charging knives will cause the Cloaking to not work as efficiently. Level Two, in which actions like firing your weapon shut the cloaking down and start up the cool-down timer.
Of course, without knowing what CCP has in store for it, this is all speculation and theory. Beyond that it's just hopes and dreams.
- Drop Uplink Specialization
At first I thought it was a great idea but then I had to recall this standpoint as it would pretty much invalidate any other player who decided to drop SP into it only to have it ripped away for the sake of balancing a broken role.
Considering the sheer amount of Drop Uplink spam going on in many PC matches (and some pub matches) I figured it would do the game a bit of justice to limit Drop Uplinks to Scouts, forcing teams to put some thought in the placement of them rather than tossing them out into the open just to get the team closer to the objective.
This idea was later recanted in favor of a discussion regarding Drop Uplink caps, and while I'm entirely against limiting how many Drop Uplinks a team can have (last thing we need is for Johnny Nobody to grief a pubmatch by capping out the DUs in the redline at the start of the match) I did give a bit of a nod to the ideal that Drop Uplinks caps could work on a player-by-player basis. However, I know there's going to be a lot of pissed off players who don't want their Drop Uplinks infringed after investing hundreds of thousands of SP into them.
Another issue is that Drop Uplinks are WAY TOO VISIBLE at the moment. It's been chalked up that it's a bug (albeit a bug that's lasted since May 6th... Hint, hint CCP..) but considering all you have to do to find them is look at your minimap, they're not exactly 'Scout privy'.
- A Complete and Total Overhaul
"Scouts need some love" is the common phrase but honestly they need more than love, they need a complete balance pass to put them in line with other specializations. Considering the WEALTH of information provided here on the forums, I'm sure we can all sit down and think about a good place to start.
Either way, a Profile Reduction and Scan Radius/Melee Increase just isn't cutting it right now. Not with such low fitting capabilities and risk vs reward associated with them. The only way this is ever going to be fixed is if each issue is looked at individually with the pros and cons weighed out. The amount of skill required to play scouts is way too high for the reward you get from them and it can get pretty overwhelming when you sit down and try to figure all of those issues out.
There's a hundred thousand different paths that can be taken with Scouts and I implore CCP to answer one question first:
"What is it that we want Scouts to do that no-one else can do better?"
Alright... We're done.... Maybe.... Kinda... Sorta...
Yeah, we're done. Thanks guys. Feel free to discuss.
Wednesday, July 31, 2013
Sunday, July 28, 2013
Planetside 2 vs Dust 514
Despite the primitive, guttural barks that the FPS community seems to associate with the PS2 vs Dust 514 argument, I decided to actually give Planetside 2 a shot and see what the hell it's all about.
Now, don't get too excited because I attribute all games as being fun on some aspect or another and when I say that I enjoy playing the game I'm not saying that it's the holy grail of gaming, though I'd imagine half of you are pissing your pants with glee under the assumption that you were somehow right. It has it's niche, it does what it does well and there's no arguing that. However, it simply does not have the same level of potential.
When you compare the two, they both advertise as triple 'A' games. This is a mistake on CCP's part because they have neither the funding nor the developmental experience that Sony Online Entertainment does, having developed -MULTIPLE- MMO platforms and already having a treasure trove of experience with Planetside - that is to say, their first release, not the sequel.
So where does it stand as far as being good and bad when correlated to Dust 514? Well, first of all, there is absolutely NO RESTRICTIONS on new player experience. You're given a choice between a few infantry classes with absolutely no customization what-so-ever (you have to earn Cert Points to do so) and thrown to the fire to forge your own path through waddling in your own blood and tears as Battle Rank 100 players curb-stomp you into oblivion.
Okay, that was a little obtuse but allow me to expand on that. There is no escalation from being the rookie grunt to the unholy abomination to your peers. You're to make due with what you have, when you have it and what I mean by that is that you're forced into using vehicles with a time limit in between uses and there's a resource allocation period before you actually get to use them. If your particular faction is getting it's ass handed to it, chances are you're not going to be able to field vehicles very often.
What this means to the player is that there's no room to jump into the specialization right from the get go. Sure, Dust 514 has vehicles that are expense but the only limitation to running them constantly is how much skill points you've invested into them and how much ISK you feel like throwing at the problem. With Planetside 2, you're entirely reliant on your peers owning territory and if you lose the vehicle in some stupid way, there's no forgiveness - you're forced to wait until the game lets you use that vehicle again.
And while we're on the discussion of territory, let's compare the two. In PS2, you push to grab territory because you're basically forced to. It's the only way that your team is going to gather resources in order to use the various methods of war and for all that it's worth there's no strategy behind any of it despite what's presented on the battlefield. There is no overarching strategy because you can only capture territory as long as it's connected to yours which entirely eliminates the aspect of attacking from within. Imagine World War II if D-Day was entirely done by beach assault with no paratroopers and how that would have gone down.
Another aspect I did not like is that there was no reason to fear losing something. There's no investment, be it personal or a group effort. You change into your MAX suit you either wait for a revive or you respawn and go in with something different while you wait for that shoddy little timer to expire. In Dust 514 and Eve Online, when you lose something there's an impact not just on you but the world around you. That Tank you lost might have been funded by the corporation, who in turn gained that ISK by working together for a common goal.
To the extent of working together there's also no aspect of backstabbing - you're a bee among the swarm and your job is to do the bidding of the nest through some animalistic, instinctual drive to keep pushing forward for the sake of it. There's no inside threat apart from the occasional friendly fire and if someone is "griefing" they're reported and dealt with by a GM. This is something I find deeply invasive as it completely kills the reality of war in that sometimes the good guys lose for other reasons besides the enemy. The Battle of Thermopylae would have gone a lot different if God had intervened with Ephialtes' betrayl.
And in conclusion I would like to mention that beyond these notable differences that Dust 514 is connected with Eve Online and that alone is plenty of reason to be excited regardless of the pace at which it is being developed. Sure, it would look a lot different if it were open world (albeit a hell of a lot more empty as most of Eve is) but the simple fact of the matter is that you can't exactly have an open world environment with 60,000 planets waiting to be claimed at some point.
They each have their pros and cons, they each have their fan-bases. Despite PS2 being as fun as it is, this old gunner is sticking with Dust 514 because there's just no greater feeling than dropping rounds from space to dispatch a bunch of nere-do-wells.
Now, don't get too excited because I attribute all games as being fun on some aspect or another and when I say that I enjoy playing the game I'm not saying that it's the holy grail of gaming, though I'd imagine half of you are pissing your pants with glee under the assumption that you were somehow right. It has it's niche, it does what it does well and there's no arguing that. However, it simply does not have the same level of potential.
When you compare the two, they both advertise as triple 'A' games. This is a mistake on CCP's part because they have neither the funding nor the developmental experience that Sony Online Entertainment does, having developed -MULTIPLE- MMO platforms and already having a treasure trove of experience with Planetside - that is to say, their first release, not the sequel.
So where does it stand as far as being good and bad when correlated to Dust 514? Well, first of all, there is absolutely NO RESTRICTIONS on new player experience. You're given a choice between a few infantry classes with absolutely no customization what-so-ever (you have to earn Cert Points to do so) and thrown to the fire to forge your own path through waddling in your own blood and tears as Battle Rank 100 players curb-stomp you into oblivion.
Okay, that was a little obtuse but allow me to expand on that. There is no escalation from being the rookie grunt to the unholy abomination to your peers. You're to make due with what you have, when you have it and what I mean by that is that you're forced into using vehicles with a time limit in between uses and there's a resource allocation period before you actually get to use them. If your particular faction is getting it's ass handed to it, chances are you're not going to be able to field vehicles very often.
What this means to the player is that there's no room to jump into the specialization right from the get go. Sure, Dust 514 has vehicles that are expense but the only limitation to running them constantly is how much skill points you've invested into them and how much ISK you feel like throwing at the problem. With Planetside 2, you're entirely reliant on your peers owning territory and if you lose the vehicle in some stupid way, there's no forgiveness - you're forced to wait until the game lets you use that vehicle again.
And while we're on the discussion of territory, let's compare the two. In PS2, you push to grab territory because you're basically forced to. It's the only way that your team is going to gather resources in order to use the various methods of war and for all that it's worth there's no strategy behind any of it despite what's presented on the battlefield. There is no overarching strategy because you can only capture territory as long as it's connected to yours which entirely eliminates the aspect of attacking from within. Imagine World War II if D-Day was entirely done by beach assault with no paratroopers and how that would have gone down.
Another aspect I did not like is that there was no reason to fear losing something. There's no investment, be it personal or a group effort. You change into your MAX suit you either wait for a revive or you respawn and go in with something different while you wait for that shoddy little timer to expire. In Dust 514 and Eve Online, when you lose something there's an impact not just on you but the world around you. That Tank you lost might have been funded by the corporation, who in turn gained that ISK by working together for a common goal.
To the extent of working together there's also no aspect of backstabbing - you're a bee among the swarm and your job is to do the bidding of the nest through some animalistic, instinctual drive to keep pushing forward for the sake of it. There's no inside threat apart from the occasional friendly fire and if someone is "griefing" they're reported and dealt with by a GM. This is something I find deeply invasive as it completely kills the reality of war in that sometimes the good guys lose for other reasons besides the enemy. The Battle of Thermopylae would have gone a lot different if God had intervened with Ephialtes' betrayl.
And in conclusion I would like to mention that beyond these notable differences that Dust 514 is connected with Eve Online and that alone is plenty of reason to be excited regardless of the pace at which it is being developed. Sure, it would look a lot different if it were open world (albeit a hell of a lot more empty as most of Eve is) but the simple fact of the matter is that you can't exactly have an open world environment with 60,000 planets waiting to be claimed at some point.
They each have their pros and cons, they each have their fan-bases. Despite PS2 being as fun as it is, this old gunner is sticking with Dust 514 because there's just no greater feeling than dropping rounds from space to dispatch a bunch of nere-do-wells.
Sunday, July 21, 2013
Coding and its relation to Skills/Resource Costs
Copying the important bits from my highly detailed forum thread for ease on the eyes.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96217
#1Posted: 2013.07.21 16:56 | Report
3
NOTICE: This is going to bevery long, very complicated and readers who dont care to read all of it may want to stay away.
This thread isregarding Skills and how they apply to items and their overall impact on your resources for your dropsuit. Ill try to be as brief as possible but theres a lot to cover in this.
First of all.. Skills apply different bonuses to different things and this is good. However, theres some discrepancy and important stuff not mentioned. We'll look at Assault Rifles as our main example. When used on a Gallente Assault Suit, theres a 5% reduction to CPU/PG needs. Lets focus on that CPU requirement for a bit. When combined with Light Weapon Operation theres a 3% per level reduction.
Its important to understand that those values dont work in tandem and what I mean by this is the percentages dont add. Lets say I hve Gallente Assault Suits 5 and Light Weapon Operation 4. Their values are -25% and -12% accordingly, which when combined add to -37%, but the reduction is based on the result, not the total. Heres an example:
Duvolle Assault Rifle
Gallente Assault 5: 90 x .75 = 67.5
Light Weapon Operation 4: 90 x .88 = 79.2
Combined Bonus of Two Skills: 59.4
This is because each skill operates separately, reducing from the result of the previous. It works in any order as basic math applies and the formula is the same either way. Now if it had reduced from the total, the end result would be 56.7, 2.7 less than thecurrent value.
Bear in mind that these results are rounded off, so 59.4 is actually 59. Had it been 56.7 it would have been rounded to 57. This is important as this is going to heavily affect our next example.
Now that that is out of theway we can move on to the important bit. How these skills apply to your suit. Be aware, readers, that Nanohives benefit from a stealth bonus from Nanocircuitry as a 5% CPU reduction per level that isnt stated on the skill. I have a separateforum thread regarding this.
Im going to list a fitting and with each item Im going to list the actual CPU cost and the skills associated that reduce the value.
Example Suit:
Gallente Logistics G-I (5% reduced CPU/PG for equipment per level) skill level 1.
Duvolle Assault Rifle (Light Weapon Operation 4): 79.2
Hacked EX-0 AV Grenade (Explosives 3): 21.25
K-2 Nanohive (Nanocircuitry 3): 33.915
K-2 Nanohive (Nanocircuitry 3): 33.915
K-2 Nanohive (Nanocircuitry 3): 33.915
Total CPU Cost: 202.195
Now, because each item is rounded off to whole numbers individually..
Actual CPU Cost: 204
Basically what this means is if you've ever been short one CPU or one PG on a tight fit, its almost inevitably because the items are rounded off rather than calculated via a decimal system. The actual values are less than what they really are. This problem was recognized in Eve Online and thats why Ships have 000.00 as their CPU/PG format as the fittings, being unbelievably tight in some cases, needed the decimal system to provide room for the numerical values.
This is most noticable for Veteran players who have skills at level 5 when their suit needed -just one more- and inevitably find that they wasted hundreds of thousands of skill points for no gain as the value was still rounded off in the end, whereas if it were decimals they would have had the necessary room to complete their perfect fitting.
#14Posted: 2013.07.21 19:03 | Report
Here's what my friend on Eve Online, Verik dra'Har, has to say:
"The problem here isn't that they're rounding, but that they are
rounding everytime something new is applied to save memory space on
the server.
An integer takes up four bytes of space in memory, whereas a double
takes up eight. Double precision math is what you refer to as decimal.
In a computer decimal math and integer math are totally separate and
integer math is much, much faster. In fact, double precision math
being slower is the entire point of a GPU which amounts to specialized
hardware that just does math.
Size of char: 1
Size of int: 4
Size of short int: 2
Size of long int: 4
Size of float: 4
Size of double: 8
Size of wchar_t: 4
In theory they could switch to floats, but that would require a ****
ton of hand edits to the codebase since they're a pain in the ass to
work with in some cases. A float is a double but smaller. It's also a
decimal number, but takes less space i nmemory. It also requires
special notation in code most f the time which is why no one uses them
for the most part.
Problem is, you're talking a **** ton of man hours to edit the code
for float friendliness. The switch from int to double would take one
guy about 20 minutes. So, the fix is dependant upon how player files
are stored in memory, stored in file/database, and when those
calculations are actually made.
Basically, the calculations need to all be done in one single line of
code and rounded at the very, very last second when stored.
For an unfixed amount of mods, because why do math when the answer is
just 0 since you don't have skill/modifier, you just dont't know how
many modifications you are going to have to make. So as modifications
are discovered, each calculation happens separately until you run out
of necessary calculations.
The most liekly scenarios where you store the mods in a list, now we
discussed that everything is probably stored as a whole number
(integer) for space/efficiency. Those long lists of equations cann0ot
be performed on a computer unless there's a fixed amount. Not in one
single line which would result in an optimal calculation. You have to
loop through the list performing a single calculation on each
mod/member of that list, which results in rounding every time, which
is how this error occurs.
How to fix this without changing the codebase big time? Can't without
making the final result a double.
On a character load, the current values for the items you own are
loaded in from the respective item database, skill mods applied, etc.
This way nothing you do to your character actually effects anything
but your character.
1.) They could change the value thats stored in the player file memory
to a double with some code edits.
2.) they could change it to a float to use the same amount of memory
space as an integer, but that would require a larger series of code
dedits depending on the language they used but since it's probably
C/C++ floats are typically a pain in the ass to use.
So it's not a rookie error, it probably was a decided trade off
between player convenience and efficiency and you lost out. At least
now you know, and can explain, why it probably is happening."
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96217
#1Posted: 2013.07.21 16:56 | Report
3
NOTICE: This is going to bevery long, very complicated and readers who dont care to read all of it may want to stay away.
This thread isregarding Skills and how they apply to items and their overall impact on your resources for your dropsuit. Ill try to be as brief as possible but theres a lot to cover in this.
First of all.. Skills apply different bonuses to different things and this is good. However, theres some discrepancy and important stuff not mentioned. We'll look at Assault Rifles as our main example. When used on a Gallente Assault Suit, theres a 5% reduction to CPU/PG needs. Lets focus on that CPU requirement for a bit. When combined with Light Weapon Operation theres a 3% per level reduction.
Its important to understand that those values dont work in tandem and what I mean by this is the percentages dont add. Lets say I hve Gallente Assault Suits 5 and Light Weapon Operation 4. Their values are -25% and -12% accordingly, which when combined add to -37%, but the reduction is based on the result, not the total. Heres an example:
Duvolle Assault Rifle
Gallente Assault 5: 90 x .75 = 67.5
Light Weapon Operation 4: 90 x .88 = 79.2
Combined Bonus of Two Skills: 59.4
This is because each skill operates separately, reducing from the result of the previous. It works in any order as basic math applies and the formula is the same either way. Now if it had reduced from the total, the end result would be 56.7, 2.7 less than thecurrent value.
Bear in mind that these results are rounded off, so 59.4 is actually 59. Had it been 56.7 it would have been rounded to 57. This is important as this is going to heavily affect our next example.
Now that that is out of theway we can move on to the important bit. How these skills apply to your suit. Be aware, readers, that Nanohives benefit from a stealth bonus from Nanocircuitry as a 5% CPU reduction per level that isnt stated on the skill. I have a separateforum thread regarding this.
Im going to list a fitting and with each item Im going to list the actual CPU cost and the skills associated that reduce the value.
Example Suit:
Gallente Logistics G-I (5% reduced CPU/PG for equipment per level) skill level 1.
Duvolle Assault Rifle (Light Weapon Operation 4): 79.2
Hacked EX-0 AV Grenade (Explosives 3): 21.25
K-2 Nanohive (Nanocircuitry 3): 33.915
K-2 Nanohive (Nanocircuitry 3): 33.915
K-2 Nanohive (Nanocircuitry 3): 33.915
Total CPU Cost: 202.195
Now, because each item is rounded off to whole numbers individually..
Actual CPU Cost: 204
Basically what this means is if you've ever been short one CPU or one PG on a tight fit, its almost inevitably because the items are rounded off rather than calculated via a decimal system. The actual values are less than what they really are. This problem was recognized in Eve Online and thats why Ships have 000.00 as their CPU/PG format as the fittings, being unbelievably tight in some cases, needed the decimal system to provide room for the numerical values.
This is most noticable for Veteran players who have skills at level 5 when their suit needed -just one more- and inevitably find that they wasted hundreds of thousands of skill points for no gain as the value was still rounded off in the end, whereas if it were decimals they would have had the necessary room to complete their perfect fitting.
#14Posted: 2013.07.21 19:03 | Report
Here's what my friend on Eve Online, Verik dra'Har, has to say:
"The problem here isn't that they're rounding, but that they are
rounding everytime something new is applied to save memory space on
the server.
An integer takes up four bytes of space in memory, whereas a double
takes up eight. Double precision math is what you refer to as decimal.
In a computer decimal math and integer math are totally separate and
integer math is much, much faster. In fact, double precision math
being slower is the entire point of a GPU which amounts to specialized
hardware that just does math.
Size of char: 1
Size of int: 4
Size of short int: 2
Size of long int: 4
Size of float: 4
Size of double: 8
Size of wchar_t: 4
In theory they could switch to floats, but that would require a ****
ton of hand edits to the codebase since they're a pain in the ass to
work with in some cases. A float is a double but smaller. It's also a
decimal number, but takes less space i nmemory. It also requires
special notation in code most f the time which is why no one uses them
for the most part.
Problem is, you're talking a **** ton of man hours to edit the code
for float friendliness. The switch from int to double would take one
guy about 20 minutes. So, the fix is dependant upon how player files
are stored in memory, stored in file/database, and when those
calculations are actually made.
Basically, the calculations need to all be done in one single line of
code and rounded at the very, very last second when stored.
For an unfixed amount of mods, because why do math when the answer is
just 0 since you don't have skill/modifier, you just dont't know how
many modifications you are going to have to make. So as modifications
are discovered, each calculation happens separately until you run out
of necessary calculations.
The most liekly scenarios where you store the mods in a list, now we
discussed that everything is probably stored as a whole number
(integer) for space/efficiency. Those long lists of equations cann0ot
be performed on a computer unless there's a fixed amount. Not in one
single line which would result in an optimal calculation. You have to
loop through the list performing a single calculation on each
mod/member of that list, which results in rounding every time, which
is how this error occurs.
How to fix this without changing the codebase big time? Can't without
making the final result a double.
On a character load, the current values for the items you own are
loaded in from the respective item database, skill mods applied, etc.
This way nothing you do to your character actually effects anything
but your character.
1.) They could change the value thats stored in the player file memory
to a double with some code edits.
2.) they could change it to a float to use the same amount of memory
space as an integer, but that would require a larger series of code
dedits depending on the language they used but since it's probably
C/C++ floats are typically a pain in the ass to use.
So it's not a rookie error, it probably was a decided trade off
between player convenience and efficiency and you lost out. At least
now you know, and can explain, why it probably is happening."
Tuesday, July 16, 2013
Skill vs Power in Dust 514
ThIs blog post might be a bit lengthy but inevitably I feel its all necessary information.
Now we all know that weapon balance is a rather finicky nuance that many game developers are amazing at and then there are some that arent. In a game like Dust 514, with so many variables and numbers, something that is considered over powered might be because of something beneath the surface simply because theres so many numbers involved from skills, suits, etc.
So, lets jump right to the chase and look at the Flaylock pistol. This has been my latest crusade as its been around for about two months now and nothing has been done to bring it in line with the other weapons. Then again, CCP hasnt made any balance passes on the weapons - save for the Tactical Assault Rifle which was annoying in its own right.
So what makes the Flaylock deadly? Well, its very forgiving as far as weapons go. A healthy 2.5m splash radius on the prototype variant from Flaylock Pistol Operation givds a lot of room for error and considering that hit-box lag is such a menace in Dust 514, that splash radius makes it a very easy weapon to use. This is a commonly brought up issue suspected of making the weapon overpowered as the Core Flaylock is the most prominently used one.
But, we have to ask ourselves. Is this because of the weapon itself, providing a 2.0m splash radius by itself, or is it from the skills? Obviously once you have the ability to use a prototype weapon the charm of using standard or advanced is only saving ISK as more firepower means youre more likely to succeed in combat. This is a side effect brought on by the skill, which in turn increases the splash radius. So its 'chicken or the egg scenario'. By all rights the Core Flaylock is powerful, but I have a theory that its something else.
Witb Proficiency level 5 and Three Complex Damage modifiers its possible to get a direct damage of approximately 450 and splash of 375 to armor. This means that the weapon, by itself, is entirely capable of one-shotting newer players who have no skills in Armor or Shield Upgrades. The issue arises when the weapon, being so forgiving in that you can aim at the targets feet and do damage within a radius, can still have killing potential.
Exrra Credits - a channel on youtube that discusses game design - explains that skill and power is a balancing act. A weapon that requires more player skill to use should be more powerful, but not so much as to cause imbalance. A good example of this is the Mass Driver, as landing shots near the target isnt intensively lethal but landing direct hits, being more skill intensive, is especially rewarding. The Flaylock throws this theory out the window, rewarding the player just for being able to fire near the target as opposed to rewarding accuracy.
The Scrambler Rifle is another good example of this as it requires a degree of focus to use due to its overheat. Being a single shot weapon with a charge up, the charged shots are especially deadly but are inherently balanced from requiring accuracy and the use to time his shots as to not overheat the weapon.
So, weve covered that the Flaylock is incredibly powerful and requires beginner level skill to use. The question is, which do we focus on more in order to balance it? Do we reduce the power and keep the skill level, or do we reduce the skill required and keep the power? Either way, theres a proper balance that needs to be realized and it will never occur so long as players defend the weapon for their own self-interest as opposed to the health of the game.
To that extent, Contact Grenades are often consided similar in the problem area as its largely the same problem. They operate much the same as a regular grenade, save that the user does not have to cook them for them to explode in the targets face. Theres little risk involved in their use as its just pulling the pin, throwing it within 6.0m kf the target and dealing damage.
Another major issue is that there is yet an ISK variant, making the Fused Contact Grenade a weapon that can only be obtained by purchasing it with real money. This goes against the philosophy thaf CCP Shanghai instated in that everything had an ISK variant and that there was no item a player could obtain, cosmetics and vanity items excluded, solely with real money.
Under the same category we could potentially put in LAVs as running players over doesnt require much skill but the rewards Are rather lucrative. LAVs are provided free to all players and a player can use a free suit. This removes all risk associated with their use as death Is meaningless and killing other players is relatively simple. Just line up the vehicle and drive forward. Even players standing ontop of the vehicle in a stopped position can be killed simply from the vehicle accelerating.
Inevitably this is all just opinionated theories from a player who may have an entirely different mentality than the developers, but Ive always maintained that if something requires extensive player skill than it should be rewarding. Quite the contrary, if it requires little skill, and is easy to use, than it should reward accordingly.
Now we all know that weapon balance is a rather finicky nuance that many game developers are amazing at and then there are some that arent. In a game like Dust 514, with so many variables and numbers, something that is considered over powered might be because of something beneath the surface simply because theres so many numbers involved from skills, suits, etc.
So, lets jump right to the chase and look at the Flaylock pistol. This has been my latest crusade as its been around for about two months now and nothing has been done to bring it in line with the other weapons. Then again, CCP hasnt made any balance passes on the weapons - save for the Tactical Assault Rifle which was annoying in its own right.
So what makes the Flaylock deadly? Well, its very forgiving as far as weapons go. A healthy 2.5m splash radius on the prototype variant from Flaylock Pistol Operation givds a lot of room for error and considering that hit-box lag is such a menace in Dust 514, that splash radius makes it a very easy weapon to use. This is a commonly brought up issue suspected of making the weapon overpowered as the Core Flaylock is the most prominently used one.
But, we have to ask ourselves. Is this because of the weapon itself, providing a 2.0m splash radius by itself, or is it from the skills? Obviously once you have the ability to use a prototype weapon the charm of using standard or advanced is only saving ISK as more firepower means youre more likely to succeed in combat. This is a side effect brought on by the skill, which in turn increases the splash radius. So its 'chicken or the egg scenario'. By all rights the Core Flaylock is powerful, but I have a theory that its something else.
Witb Proficiency level 5 and Three Complex Damage modifiers its possible to get a direct damage of approximately 450 and splash of 375 to armor. This means that the weapon, by itself, is entirely capable of one-shotting newer players who have no skills in Armor or Shield Upgrades. The issue arises when the weapon, being so forgiving in that you can aim at the targets feet and do damage within a radius, can still have killing potential.
Exrra Credits - a channel on youtube that discusses game design - explains that skill and power is a balancing act. A weapon that requires more player skill to use should be more powerful, but not so much as to cause imbalance. A good example of this is the Mass Driver, as landing shots near the target isnt intensively lethal but landing direct hits, being more skill intensive, is especially rewarding. The Flaylock throws this theory out the window, rewarding the player just for being able to fire near the target as opposed to rewarding accuracy.
The Scrambler Rifle is another good example of this as it requires a degree of focus to use due to its overheat. Being a single shot weapon with a charge up, the charged shots are especially deadly but are inherently balanced from requiring accuracy and the use to time his shots as to not overheat the weapon.
So, weve covered that the Flaylock is incredibly powerful and requires beginner level skill to use. The question is, which do we focus on more in order to balance it? Do we reduce the power and keep the skill level, or do we reduce the skill required and keep the power? Either way, theres a proper balance that needs to be realized and it will never occur so long as players defend the weapon for their own self-interest as opposed to the health of the game.
To that extent, Contact Grenades are often consided similar in the problem area as its largely the same problem. They operate much the same as a regular grenade, save that the user does not have to cook them for them to explode in the targets face. Theres little risk involved in their use as its just pulling the pin, throwing it within 6.0m kf the target and dealing damage.
Another major issue is that there is yet an ISK variant, making the Fused Contact Grenade a weapon that can only be obtained by purchasing it with real money. This goes against the philosophy thaf CCP Shanghai instated in that everything had an ISK variant and that there was no item a player could obtain, cosmetics and vanity items excluded, solely with real money.
Under the same category we could potentially put in LAVs as running players over doesnt require much skill but the rewards Are rather lucrative. LAVs are provided free to all players and a player can use a free suit. This removes all risk associated with their use as death Is meaningless and killing other players is relatively simple. Just line up the vehicle and drive forward. Even players standing ontop of the vehicle in a stopped position can be killed simply from the vehicle accelerating.
Inevitably this is all just opinionated theories from a player who may have an entirely different mentality than the developers, but Ive always maintained that if something requires extensive player skill than it should be rewarding. Quite the contrary, if it requires little skill, and is easy to use, than it should reward accordingly.
Tuesday, July 9, 2013
Ulfberht - Crucible Steel
Ulfberht, I figured this was a fitting title and I'll explain why. The Ulfberht was a sword, of which less than a hundred were found to be real, was made of crucible steel. What this means is that it had a remarkable quality, free of slag and forged with such craftsmanship it was thoughtto hold magical powers. This viking sword was not just known for its reputation but largely because it was forged using techniques so advanced that some 800 years later, blacksmiths and steel manufacturers are just now able to recreate it.
The reason I correlate this, especially as my first blog post in Blind Man's Moon - a Dust 514 blog - is because I feel that New Eden is an Ulfberht. Its made with such quality that it has gained a reputation, a mark in history, but beyond that it is not free of imperfection, 'slag' so to speak.
Ive come to notice that Dust 514 is in an odd place. Whereas Eve crafted its place in the MMO genre with something new and innovative, Dust is trying to do the same, but its trying to appeal to a market that already exists. What I mean by this is the FPS community. This isnt bad, but its a market that is very vast and flexible. Players may prefer fast paced, small map shooters like Call of Duty and others may prefer a larger expanse with vehicles such as Battlefield 3.
But Dust 514 is innovative, its different - well, trying to be. The issue, I think, is that trying to appeal to these players has left Dust without a niche of its own, something to dynamically set it apart from the rest. The potential is there, absolutely, with the connection to Eve online, but whenthe community is divided by different playstyles it leads to a sort of dispute.
In essence, I think CCP is on the right path. The community canbe angry to the point of raising pitchforks and torches but inevitably if CCP caters to one side or the other they lose the interest of theother side. The solution? Ignore the whining masses and their complaints and do what ia healthy for the game, because theyre players and almost always self interested.
Its very easy to get caught in themass hysteria, to fall prey and joining the angry mob, but what good will it do? Every morning you get the mail the dog barks, sure its annoying yet you cope because you know that once hes expended enough energy he'll wind down and be man's best friend again. Its all a matter of patience, and you never once had to stop what you were doing.
A player told me that if they keep nerfing (balancing, to us civil types) everything, that he was going to leave. To me, this isnt much of a threat. People threaten to leave frequently and Ive grouped them into two categories.
A. The type that were going to leave anyway, because they honestly arent a good matchwith the game.
B. The type that want to throw their tantrum, get their attention and maube get their way but inevitably keep playing regardless of the outcome.
Thats why I feel that this game is an Ulfberht sword. A diamond, a jewel in a sea of mediocrity and repetition that has its imperfections but largely a practical concept you can have faith is made by someone you can trust.
So, theres my random thoughts. I hate having to type all of this out on a tablet but its all I have.
The reason I correlate this, especially as my first blog post in Blind Man's Moon - a Dust 514 blog - is because I feel that New Eden is an Ulfberht. Its made with such quality that it has gained a reputation, a mark in history, but beyond that it is not free of imperfection, 'slag' so to speak.
Ive come to notice that Dust 514 is in an odd place. Whereas Eve crafted its place in the MMO genre with something new and innovative, Dust is trying to do the same, but its trying to appeal to a market that already exists. What I mean by this is the FPS community. This isnt bad, but its a market that is very vast and flexible. Players may prefer fast paced, small map shooters like Call of Duty and others may prefer a larger expanse with vehicles such as Battlefield 3.
But Dust 514 is innovative, its different - well, trying to be. The issue, I think, is that trying to appeal to these players has left Dust without a niche of its own, something to dynamically set it apart from the rest. The potential is there, absolutely, with the connection to Eve online, but whenthe community is divided by different playstyles it leads to a sort of dispute.
In essence, I think CCP is on the right path. The community canbe angry to the point of raising pitchforks and torches but inevitably if CCP caters to one side or the other they lose the interest of theother side. The solution? Ignore the whining masses and their complaints and do what ia healthy for the game, because theyre players and almost always self interested.
Its very easy to get caught in themass hysteria, to fall prey and joining the angry mob, but what good will it do? Every morning you get the mail the dog barks, sure its annoying yet you cope because you know that once hes expended enough energy he'll wind down and be man's best friend again. Its all a matter of patience, and you never once had to stop what you were doing.
A player told me that if they keep nerfing (balancing, to us civil types) everything, that he was going to leave. To me, this isnt much of a threat. People threaten to leave frequently and Ive grouped them into two categories.
A. The type that were going to leave anyway, because they honestly arent a good matchwith the game.
B. The type that want to throw their tantrum, get their attention and maube get their way but inevitably keep playing regardless of the outcome.
Thats why I feel that this game is an Ulfberht sword. A diamond, a jewel in a sea of mediocrity and repetition that has its imperfections but largely a practical concept you can have faith is made by someone you can trust.
So, theres my random thoughts. I hate having to type all of this out on a tablet but its all I have.
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